The colour is different. To put things into perspective, consider that a tile floor is made up of three layers: the subfloor, the underlayment, and the tile surface you walk on. @JimmyFix-it - You are right. This liquid waterproofing solution does more than keep water away, it also promotes tile adhesion and prevents cracking. Additionally, all seams should be sealed with Kerdi Fix and covered with fleece. Hi David. Then cement, sand and water are mixed together to a crumbly consistency and floated over the lath to form a flat surface. They are available in thicknesses of 3/16, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1-1/2, and 2 (5, 9, 12.5, 19, 25, 38, and 50 mm). Additionally, all thin-set mortars should be suitable for use in wet or feature depths of up to 1/8 inch. When screwed to the framing, thin strips of cement board fracture more easily than thin strips of fiber-cement. Not even the plumber's fault as it was just a bad valve. After installing your mud bed, make sure it is fully cured before applying Aquadefense. Kerdi membrane can be used on cement board, drywall, and, as you may have guessed- greenboard. We recommend our users to update the browser. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. It looks like Kerdi membrane is ~$2/sqft ($200 for a 108sqft roll) and kerdi board is $3.7/sqft ($115 for a 4x8 sheet (Lowes)). An additional layer of sealant can also be applied on the seams for extra protection and water resistance. If you preorder a special airline meal (e.g. Kerdi does admit that you can use cement board. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. However, the answer you provided above suggests that the OP could omit a waterproof membrane, that I. link to What Kind Of Paint For Garage Walls? (3ft-3in wide). Wedi showers feature a pre-sloped base that is already installed. If he did the framing for the shower, then in order to measure for it correctly, he would need to know how thick the tile is so that he can avoid exactly this problem. Most cement-based thin-set mortars are suitable; however, it is important to check the manufacturers instructions to ensure that the product is approved for use with Schluter systems. That means that you do not have to rely on a surface membrane or worry about the board failing if the core is exposed to water. This feature makes building the base structure much easier and more cost . While cement board may be the most common and widely-known tile substrate, Kerdi Board is giving it a run for its money. Depending on factors such as room temperature, humidity, and ventilation in the area, this could take anywhere from 1 to 3 days. The cement board core itself is not waterproof, but it can withstand water without falling apart. He would take his rough opening measurement and subtract the thicknesses of the tile, the cement board, and in his unique install method the purpleboard. Re: Kerdi on shower curbs. We like that the Kerdi membrane material installs easily over almost any substrate, including standard wallboard. This will prevent water from entering from behind the membrane, and will provide a more secure waterproof layer. You can apply it on PVC, metal, slabs, walls, and floors. Being a Los Angeles resident, Jessica spends a lot of her time looking for her next DIY project and sharing her love for home design. But there are downsides. I would avoid Hardi, as Avanti is right that it is thirsty. Hardie board is thirsty, but that's way too fast. Regardless, cement board is a great, trusted tile substrate that will work well on both walls and floors. The Kerdi membrane should be applied with the standard procedure, using a hogg brush or a notched trowel to spread the thin-set mortar and a roller to ensure appropriate adhesion. When applying the primer, make sure to cover all surfaces thoroughly, as these will be completely covered by the KERDI membrane. If you want a cement board, use Durock or Wonderboard. It installs with screws, then you tape the joints & screw holes and install your tile. Then you can apply a thin layer of KERDI-FIX to the board, the membrane over top . Need help liner vs liquid membrane question. We waterproof the outside the hardiboard in 99% of the install with something like redgard. Our thinset was more watery than the videos, but it still managed to dry out quickly, even in the time it takes to apply the small corners in our shampoo niche. Since the existing wall board will be removed, I'd prefer to go a little extra and install a water proof cement board type base so the tile has a solid substrate even if it were to get wet . Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Tile can be installed directly over Kerdi-Board using the thinset method; For use with ceramic and natural stone tile; Return Policy; California residents. Run a damp towel over the cement board surface to dust . Kerdi Board is expensive, but I can justify it because it saves time, and it's a joy to use. When installing KERDI with . Cement board sucks up the moisture and as a result, the kerdi doesn't always stick as well to cement board. Or will the Kerdi membrane (with seams taped with kerdi band) prevent each board from moving independently? If you do not already have the hardi up, I recommend using real cement board (Hardi is a fiber-cement) or drywall. Contact us: 888-472-4588
Waterproofing cement board is relatively simple and there are several different waterproofing products available. The niche' intermediate shelf isn't actually attached, to enable specific placement for each unique tiling application. Gettin' a little delirious. You're correct if you use the shluter kerdi membrane you do not use a vapour barrier since it creates a sandwhich effect that doesn't allow the substrate . You just need a hammer and wonderbar for the walls. If youre not careful, the boards can also leave behind abrasive sandy crumbs that can cause damage to your shower base or tub. Start by cleaning the cement board with a mineral oil soap; this will help reduce mold and mildew growth throughout the life of the shower. Its important to note that Kerdi membrane is not a structural base layer, so plywood should be installed and reinforced as necessary based on load requirements. I hang Kerdi on cement board and fibercement board all the time. Cement board and grout are not water proof, if there's Kerdi no moisture is ever going to be able to get behind it. . Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. With Wedi products, the compound curves are easy to produce quickly. Kerdi can even be installed over drywall. Houzz Pro: One simple solution for contractors and design pros, surfer thanked Avanti Tile & Stone / Stonetech. ps, now that you don't need it anymore you can throw that useless cheap piece of crap magnesium float my way. Now there's nothing particularly wrong with fiber-cementit's just not my first choice. Finally, it is important to remember that any thin-set that has been exposed to moisture must be replaced. MAPEI makes products for each step of the remodel process, giving you a single source solution, and only one phone number to call if you need assistance! Additionally, the drywall should be primed with a latex primer before applying the Kerdi membrane. I ended up putting up a thin, skim-coat of thinset all over the hardi board, letting it dry, and then putting up the kerdi. When applying Kerdi membrane to cement board, the edges and seams of the membrane must be lapped, meaning that each layer should overlap the portion underneath it by a minimum of two inches. First, you would waterproof with your favorite liquid waterproofing membrane of . The 30-in. Keep in mind, that, just to be safe, most professionals choose to install a waterproofing membrane on top of the cement board when installing in wet locations like tub surrounds or showers. I would get someone else. Additionally, seal the space around any pipes and fixtures that can be found in the shower. Following these steps will help ensure that your shower space is properly sealed, and thus that the cement board is well protected from moisture. Ditra is manufactured in a 3'3 width and comes in various roll lengths (54sf, 150sf, and 323 sf). Learn about the options in exterior siding before you choose, Before you pick up a single tile, pull from these tips for expert results, Slip resistance, curves and even the mineral content of your water all affect which tile is best for your shower, We help a Houzz user ask all the right questions for designing a stylish, practical and safe shower bench, This isn't a light DIY project: You'll need heavy-duty tools and plenty of protection for your home and yourself, In steamy quarters, tile needs to stand up to all that water and vapor in style. Install the drain adapter, if needed. My understanding is that Schluter-Kerdi, being a sheet topical membrane, recommends just going with regular drywall instead of cement board but you can certainly use cement board as the substrate. Your air bubbles will travel along the valleys you've made, and it's way better if you only have to move them 20 inches to the nearest edge rather than all the way from the ceiling to the floor [Again, Mongo can, but he has mad skills].-Not paying attention to the principle of bedding top down, center out. It is designed to form a waterproof layer between cement board and tiles, helping create a watertight installation. @JimmyFix-it - hardiboard is not really porous unless it is completely saturated. What Is the Difference Between 'Man' And 'Son of Man' in Num 23:19? Various products can be used to waterproof shower walls such as water-resistant drywall and cement backer boards. We are DIYers who have already remodeled one bathroom successfully, but this is our first time using The Schluter shower system. Any competent tile contractor would float the wall in mortar giving you a stronger, level, perfectly flat, and square surface to properly install tile. Once youre sure that the membrane is completely dry, you can then move forward with tiling. Furthermore, if you're working in an older home KERDI-BOARD fits better than cement board in odd spaces. When installing KERDI with unmodified thin-set mortar over particularly dry and porous substrates, it is recommended to wet the substrate first, in order to help prevent premature drying or skinning of the thin-set mortar. The completed assembly takes the place of more traditional backer board when installed over 3/4-inch wood subfloors. Yes. There is no cutting or fitting of boards, and a mortar bed is good for leveling and flattening uneven or out-of-level floors, which are common in old houses. I have to redo my tub surround due to moisture leaks and failing grout. Yeah it seems that the only products that will be compatible with cement board and the kerdi membrane are bostik ditra-set and schluter all-set (or one of schluters other products). Once you have determined the type of thinset, its important to also consider the weather conditions during installation. Kerdi's systems are fairly reputable. When having to put it up on the wall or measure it for size, you will find that you can get the exact measurements you need without much trouble. Allow the adhesive to cure for the amount of time recommended by the adhesives manufacturer. Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT is a prefabricated sloped shower tray with integrated Kerdi waterproofing. Fiber cement board is available in 1/4-inch and 1/2-inch thicknesses. vegan) just to try it, does this inconvenience the caterers and staff? She grew up surrounded by constant home improvement projects and owes most of what she knows to helping her dad renovate her childhood home. I'm thirsty. Cut the shower tray to size. This will help you achieve the best results and ensure the longevity of your project. FRC board tends to be more moisture-resistant than gypsum board and is best suited for outdoor projects such as showers or tub surrounds. We use a pump action garden sprayer and its usually dry by the time we clean the sprayer. If a law is new but its interpretation is vague, can the courts directly ask the drafters the intent and official interpretation of their law? Both may be effective substrates, but Kerdi Board boasts significant advantages. Finally, use a roller or brush to ensure that the membrane is secure and has no wrinkles or air bubbles. Even the tiling subs have moved away from mortar walls because of the labor cost and lack of craftsmen in the industry. Cement board is readily available and relatively inexpensive (about $10 for a 3 x 5-ft. sheet). If installing large format tiles (over 15"), be sure to give the Aquadefense at least 8 hours to cure first. Using self-leveling underlayment takes careful prep work. Cementboard sufficient to a tub surround is dirt cheap .vs. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. Do you have any pictures? Given the complexity, its easy to see why even experienced tile setters avoid dry-pack mortar and use backer board instead when they can. Additionally, all thin-set should be allowed to cure for 24 hours before tiles are installed. if you go with vapour barrier, then cement board. This product is available in 3/16", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" 3/4", 1" 1-1/2" and 2" thicknesses, allowing for a wide variety of installation options. I don't want to use the Ditra membrane product but rather tiles directly over the cement boards. Also - use a good thinset. Step 3: Apply Thinset. How can I find out which sectors are used by files on NTFS? Ultimately, the decision between a Schlter system or a cement board comes down to the particular application and the goals the user has for the floor system. They are square. Bulk update symbol size units from mm to map units in rule-based symbology. Schulter Ditra is manufactured by Schluter Systems and is a 1/8 thick polyethylene uncoupling membrane that is specifically designed for tile installations. First, felt paper is stapled to the floor and covered with expanded metal lath. For the floor, he should've put a mortar bed, then a membrane that goes over the curb, then another mortar bed. Kerdi Board vs. Cement Board. Maybe try another brand of thinset? Will be doing a bathroom gut and will be laying durock cement board over plywood sub floor. How do you show the depth of a hole in a drawing? It is a topical waterproofing layer that is put over the substrate to keep water from getting to the wood frame and nails. Needless to say, the drywall turned to mush. Cement board is a heavy mess compared to drywall, and drywall is a heavy mess compared to Kerdi Board. No, that doesn't sound right. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? You probably have to go to a big box store's special order desk or find a specialty tile supplier to find it. 4. RedGard, on the other hand, is a liquid waterproofing membrane made by Custom Building Products. It may take more than 1 beer:). Though, each product comes with its own individual characteristics, and pros and cons. I also used a larger sized trowel than the one recommend by Schluter. But I can't give you a +1 because telling someone to mortar all the walls in a large shower is like telling them to make an ice sculpture. We think it is the cement board (Durock) sucking the moisture out of the unmodified thinset. Cement board, Wedi board, Kerdi board, Hardibacker, Densshield, Durock, Permabase, or Wonder board . Not everyone knows how to do mud and lathe it's so old school plus it wears you out, ive been a setter for 27 yrs and I have yet to go back to one of my showers I installed using perma base or durock, with a liner, i have started using waterproofing such as redguard or aqua-defense. What do you mean it doesn't adhere? You still use metal lath, but then mix bags of powder and pour the soupy mix onto the floor. When installing Schluter Kerdi Membrane over cement backerboard: Should I use Alkali Resistant Mesh Tape and thinset on the seams of the backer board (for long term durability to prevent each board moving independently thus preventing cracking) prior to installing the Kerdi membrane. "..2) the kerdi band isn't stuck flat -- the edges in some spots are wavy. This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in To ensure the floor is clean, wipe it with a wet sponge. BTW the older Kerdi thread referencedwas excellent. This will help to extend its lifespan and make sure it looks its best for years to come. LONDON. To install Kerdi Membrane, start by applying Schulter ALL-SET mortar (or similar) to your cement board substrate using a 1/4" x 3/16" V-Notch Trowel. When applying the thin-set, it should be applied in such a way that it fully fills any empty space between the Tile and Schluter product and is solid enough to support the weight of the tiles being installed. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Cement board is particularly vulnerable to water damage, so waterproofing can help protect it and help it last longer. I've never had a failure. A.Sean Gerolimatos, technical services manager for Schluter Systems, responds: With a few exceptions, unmodified thinset mortar is required for setting ceramic and stone tile over Kerdi membranes (800/472-4588, www.schluter.com ), as well as for bonding overlapped seams and connections to Kerdi drains. One thing I do like fibercement (Hardie) for is when I need thin strips of cement board. This is confusing since Kerdi Board has no Kerdi on it. RedGard can be applied to cement board panels in two ways: Roll it on the wall with a 3/4-inch nap roller or spray it on the wall. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. If you can avoid that, the demo would be ~easy enough to maybe have some friends who'd work for beer come over and help you knock it out. The shower is ready for tile. Will add it in. They can be installed on any type of support and can even be used to create partitions, with no structural support required. #2 - Your suggestion has plenty of merit though. That was not a fault of the Kerdi, or the installation. Everyone knows brick and stucco, but what about fiber cement and metal? Make sure to use multiple coats, if necessary. I have used kerdi, and I have applied it over cement board. Using modified thinset on KERDI can be tricky and in some cases, it can cause issues. About an argument in Famine, Affluence and Morality, Acidity of alcohols and basicity of amines. What to use to flatten and prep wall before installing Schluter Kerdi membrane for tiling? Properly waterproofing a shower area sharing a living room wall, Can I use cement accelerator to decrease setup time of modified thinset. For indoor projects and gypsum board, thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is ideal. Both Kerdi Board and cement board are designed to smooth out uneven spots on the installation surface, create an unbending layer that wont flex underfoot, and also provide a waterproof barrier. Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange! The big issue with cement board is that the thinset will skin over really quickly. The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. It looks like you have Kerdi installed on the floor and not Kerdi Board. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-1','ezslot_24',166,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-1-0');If cement board is not waterproof, it can negatively impact the integrity of the tile that is installed on top of it, and can lead to a variety of issues. I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. A hundred times better to have too much before you comb than too little. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-box-3','ezslot_2',173,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-box-3-0');Yes, you can put Kerdi membrane over cement board. It also helped me to work in smaller sheets. No bulges either, but definetly no thin spots.-Not paying attention to the direction of the comb. We store towels, medicine, toiletry supplies, first-aid gear, massage devices, facial steamers, spare Painting your garage is a great way to improve the look of the space and make the walls easier to clean. I think I'll try using the thinned mixture of Redgard and then try the Kerdi membrane again. What are the differences between "paperless drywall" and "cement board"? We mixed the thinset, it wasn't as smooth as the utube video, but it was close, and we gave it ten minutes. Important to overlap seams in a shingle method. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. But that doesn't address your question, so it's just a comment, not an answer as such. When doing so, it is important to ensure that the drywall surface is clean and free of dust, grease, and loose paint. Putting this stuff on walls is difficult and time . Recovering from a blunder I made while emailing a professor, Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain. A good rule of thumb is 24 hours per inch of thickness, then one more day on top of that to be sure. If you choose to use Aquadefense as a shower pan liner, be sure to continue it up the walls at least 6", tying into your waterproofing on the walls. When I tried putting up the first sheets, which were only 36" x 39", and even though I had SOAKED the hardi, to the point water was pooling on the floor, the thinset was already drying before I got the Kerdi up, and I couldn't get it to adhere properly no matter how hard I tried. Once the adhesive has been applied and has had time to properly cure, then the KERDI membrane can be applied to the wall. We are still most comfortable with full plumber's pan over the curb, including glue-on preformed corners, and also a second layer (usually Kerdi but can be paint-on) on top of CBU wrap over curb. 120 sq feet including the floor. Kerdi Board as a whole is much easier to install than Cement Board. On the other hand, a Schlter system offers improved thermal insulation, which can help to reduce heating costs. Well, DH said he had virtually no time to work with the stuff before it dried out, so he switched from my spritz bottle to a sponge. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer), Do not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Here are the fundamentals of tile installation over cement board. Once the primer is completely dry, use a roller or brush to apply a coat of your chosen KERDI membrane adhesive over the entire surface of the wall, overlapping the edges slightly for full coverage. Most of the entries in the NAME column of the output from lsof +D /tmp do not begin with /tmp. Take care to cut the KERDI membrane to the appropriate size and apply it to the wall, ensuring that it is properly adhered and that the edges are sealed with KERDI sealant. Too little, and the kerdi will never show you gray, no matter how you sweat. All it takes is the right preparation. You have to seal every little hole in the floor so the underlayment doesnt seep into spaces below. Dean, our tile consultant, says glass mat backer board is his first choice due to the ease of installation, cost, and because his workers like it. There are many different types of underlayment to choose from, but they all serve the same purpose. Kerdi Board panels have a number of other advantages: they can be cut to size using an ordinary utility knife, can be glued or screwed into place, and are very lightweight. What can a lawyer do if the client wants him to be acquitted of everything despite serious evidence? New England. 120 sq feet including the floor. Yes, Kerdi membrane can be installed over plywood. These multifunctional tile substrate and building panels are thus perfect for creating bonded waterproofing assemblies with tile coverings. Aquadefense is approved by IAPMO for use as a shower pan liner, but be sure to check your local building codes, as some areas of the country still require the PVC liner. I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. Cement board is a bit better, but you need to spray either one before applying the mortar so that it doesn't "skin over" before you can get the Kerdi up. When it comes to tile underlayment, your options can be categorized into three main classifications, each suitable for different tiling circumstances: Although cement board is the most commonly used underlayment for tile, Kerdi board is growing in popularity as a multifunctional tile substrate. You troweled on thinset combing it out then pressed the Kerdi into place? Jun 21, 2017. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Are there tables of wastage rates for different fruit and veg? The cement board needs to be clean, free of debris, and dry. I have corrugated metal shower surround & grab bars. Once all that is completed and the Aquadefense has dried, you can install your tile with a polymer modified mortar meeting the ANSI requirements of A118.4 or A118.11. I always install it over cement board or backerboard, never over drywall, even blueboard or the mold resistant greenboard. Its essential to protect surrounding wall and floor surfaces from water or moisture damage that can occur in these areas. If there is no blocking behind the seam, i would just tape prior to installing the membrane, the thinset will fill the seam and embed the mesh. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried . Your Get free, zero-commitment quotes from pro contractors near you. . It only takes a minute to sign up. When I do another shower I'll use real cement board, not Hardi-board. How long should I wait after painting on the Redgard before I try to reapply the membrane? The core isnt waterproof, but it can withstand getting wet without falling apart, so even if your waterproofing system leaks, the board will stay intact. The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. I look at ceramic tile as a lifetime-of the house-product, so I use the best material for the job.I prefer to use cement board as the substrate with the Kerdi on top. It's still applied to cement board. Thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is best for interior projects, but if youre installing outdoors, you should use thinset with a polymer modified (PM) compound for greater moisture resistance. Also are you saying that you wet ("booking the Kerdi") the Kerdi, as well? Thanks. Waterproofing is an important aspect of any bathroom or wet-area installation. Keep in mind that most tile setters err on the side of caution and brush a waterproofing membrane on top of cement board when it is in wet areas like showers or tub surrounds. Sheets of glass mat gypsum are made from water-resistant silicone-treated gypsum, reinforced on both sides by fiberglass mats. Required fields are marked *. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. All it takes is the right preparation. KERDI features a modified polyethylene (PEVA) core with non-woven polypropylene on both sides to anchor the membrane in the thin-set mortar. Kerdi membrane prevents water damage and mold development. Hardibacker is a VERY "thirsty" material that sucks the moisture out of the mortar VERY quickly and I don't like it. there should be a small gap between the backer board and the tub. Hardie board is a cement-based siding product that is water-resistant, but not waterproof. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried using a larger notch trowel, but nothing seems to make the Kerdi stick. Do the prefab Schluter niches like the double unit 12 by 28shelf have a built in pitch to the bottom and middle shelves to drainoff water as shown in niche that you built in that thread? Continuing Education for Architects & Designers. #1 - Backer board has nothing to do with HD or any other big box. This is necessary to ensure that the membrane will adhere properly to the drywall. It costs more but it;s worth it for the ease of install IMO. When it comes to using thinset with Schluter products, the Schluter-Systems website recommends using unmodified thin-set mortars specifically designed for use with Schluter membranes.